https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/mcgill-uqam-have-not-adopted-sexual-violence-policies-by-jan-1-deadline-1.4974423 New law requires colleges and universities to have mandatory training for students, support for victims.
McGill University (pictured), UQAM and a majority of the province's colleges have not adopted a new sexual violence policy as required by provincial law. (Ryan Remiorz/Canadian Press)
Two Montreal universities and a majority of the province's CEGEPs have not adopted a policy on sexual violence by the Jan. 1 deadline set by the provincial government.
Quebec's Education Ministry posted a list of complying post-secondary institutions on its website Thursday. Missing were McGill University, Université du Québec à Montréal (UQAM) and 26 of the province's 48 CEGEPS, including Dawson College and Marianopolis College in Montreal.
The law countering sexual violence on campus was passed in December 2017, after a series of sexual assaults were reported at the student residences at Université Laval in Quebec City.
Bill 151 was debated amid several high-profile cases of alleged misconduct by men in the entertainment industry such as Hollywood film producer Harvey Weinstein and Just For Laughs co-founder Gilbert Rozon.
Colleges, universities, law schools and police academies were required to adopt their policies by Jan. 1, and have them in effect by Sept. 1.
By mid-November last year, no post-secondary institution had submitted their policy to the government.
The university expects to have the updated policy approved by its board of governors next month.
Hundreds of students from McGill and Concordia universities organized a walk-out together in April 2018. They said their schools are not doing enough to address complaints about alleged abusive behaviour and sexual misconduct. (CBC)
UQAM spokesperson Jenny Desrochers told Radio-Canada that the university has extended its consultation period "so that more people participate," and that a policy would be in place in the coming weeks.
Marianopolis College spokesperson Kathryn Haralambous said the CEGEP informed the ministry in November that its board of governors would not meet before the Jan. 1 deadline.
The college, which includes a reference to sexual assault in its current psychological harassment policy, expects to have its new policy approved at the board's Jan. 29 meeting, she said.
Dawson College did not immediately return a request for comment from CBC News.
Mandatory training for students
The law requires that institutions have a policy in place that covers social activities including orientation week, have mandatory training in place for students, create a complaints process and explicitly include sexual violence in their code of conduct.
Sexual violence is defined by the law as sexual assault and any unwanted sexual gesture, speech, behaviour or attitude communicated in person or through technology.
Sanctions must also be in place for anyone in breach of the policy, depending on the gravity of the action and whether the person is a repeat offender.
If an institution does not put its own policy in place, the law states the Education Ministry can create a sexual violence policy for them on the institution's dime.
Former education minister Hélène David told Radio-Canada she was "disappointed" to hear that many post-secondary institutions have not yet submitted their new policies.
"It has been 13 months since the law was adopted and it was very clear," she said.
Dr. Karen Kelsky who runs the well-known site "The Professor is In" created an extensively crowd-sourced spreadsheet of sexual harassment in universities and colleges (there are even some high schools mentioned on the spreadsheet).
Trigger warning. You can read the spreadsheet in it's entirety here. It makes for brutal and very uncomfortable reading, enough to make your skin crawl and it will probably never come back. There are about six McGill entries as well and it involves MA supervisors, department chairs, tenured professors and administrators.
There are stories about profs wanting to "receive more hospitality" meeting students at bars, going out to films and then "expecting more", pressing breasts, handing out suggestive remarks like "How badly do you want it?" (Student Life and Learning) , 60-something profs hitting on 18 year old undergrads offering to take them on vacation and "show them a good time" and how he likes "curvaceous women" (Food Chemistry), invitations to summer homes and off-topic emails that become increasingly suggestive , how he was a friend of Sting's (Daniel Levitin), undergrad groped and kissed by a professor in his office (Communications).
Go to the top of column "F" and you'll see an arrow on the right-hand side to sort the column alphabetically. Sort it alphabetically A--->Z and then you can scroll down to see all the McGill entries in one place that have been named as "McGill".
Given that many names of institutions, discipline and departments on the 2400+ separate entries spreadsheet have been deliberately withheld by the posters, no doubt there are probably even more McGill entries on the database which we'll never know about.
This following message went out a few days ago to the McGill Community.
==================
Dear Members of the McGill community,
McGill is
committed to providing a learning and working environment for all that
is respectful, safe, and inclusive. Our University’s efforts in
connection with sexual violence prevention and response are critical to
delivering on this commitment.
As the fall semester gets underway, I write with an update about these efforts.
Last spring, in addition to establishing new Guidelines on Intimate Relationships between Teaching Staff and Students,
I announced that McGill would be appointing a Special Investigator
charged with investigating all reports of sexual violence on campus. I
am delighted to announce the appointment of Maître Caroline Lemay to
this role. Me Lemay’s appointment was made pursuant to a careful
process overseen by a small University committee that included
representation from the Students’ Society of McGill University (SSMU).
Me Lemay is a lawyer and member of the Barreau du Québec and founder ofOmega Ombudservices, an
entity that works to prevent conflict and promote fairness in
organizational settings. Holding a graduate degree in Conflict
Prevention and Resolution, she has served for the past 13 years as an
independent mediator and investigator for a range of local and
international organizations. Her experience has focused on human rights
issues in a diversity of contexts, including the Centre for Restorative
Justice, Le Regroupement des organismes de justice alternative du
Québec, and the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC). In each
of these settings, Me Lemay has been called upon to work toward
achieving fair outcomes that respect the rights and obligations of all
those involved.
Me Lemay will spend the first weeks of the Fall
term meeting with diverse campus stakeholders. As of October 9, she will
be the singular point of entry for any person wishing to make a formal
report of sexual violence (as defined by McGill’s Policy against Sexual
Violence) against a member of the campus community.
Investigations led by the Special Investigator will:
Be trauma-informed
Adhere to the requirements of procedural fairness and, insofar as possible, confidentiality
Involve
interviews of the parties individually (who may each be accompanied by
an advisor) and witnesses, and an assessment of all other relevant
evidence (e.g., documents, written communications)
Aim to be completed within 60 days
Result
in a confidential written report setting out findings, which will be
sent to the relevant disciplinary officer (Faculty Dean, Dean of
Students, or Dean of Graduate & Postdoctoral Studies) for
disciplinary or other action, where appropriate. Parties to the
investigation will be informed of the Special Investigator’s findings
and the justification on which these are based, with a view to ensuring
that the process is fair, transparent, and protects the interests of the
parties.
Additionally, McGill’s Office for Sexual Violence Response, Support & Education (O-SVRSE) continues
its critical work in connection with sexual violence education
campus-wide and with providing support to survivors. I remind you that
all members of the campus community – whether students, faculty, or
administrative and support staff – may access O-SVRSE’s services.
Reports to Senate will be provided over the fall term from the following bodies:
· Committee for the Implementation of the Policy against Sexual Violence
· Ad Hoc Panel to Conduct a Campus Study of Sexual Violence
· Ad Hoc Senate Committee on Teaching Staff-Student Intimate Relationship
Let me close by thanking you for your ongoing attention to this matter of central importance for our campus.
Professor Christopher Manfredi Provost & Vice-Principal (Academic)
===================
OK, a couple of questions...
1) What happens if it is a
member of the "McGill community" acting like a dick off-campus like a
McGill professor sleazing on students at a bar on St. Laurent street?
Does that count or does it have to be "on campus"?
2) What
happens if some of this sexual harassment happened a long time ago? Can
you retroactively file a complaint or not? Are there statutes of
limitations here?
3) When filing a complaint, do those who were harassed or assaulted need proof? What kind of proof? Is their word enough?
4)
Will there be a real and serious system of punitive measures finally
put in place for those persons found guilty? Will a perpetrator be
fired for example? Will their pay be docked? Will they be forced to go
on indefinite leave with no pay? What about professors with tenure?
5)
How much transparency will there be when punitive measures are taken?
When victims decide to come forward, will their confidentiality and
anonymity be respected?
Several news outlets including VICE and Macleans, are pursuing this story and want to hear directly from victims. One of the news outlets is the McGill Tribune. Here's who you get in touch with. (Alexandra originally has posted this on PSR but it was deleted within minutes. This is also from a cached Google copy)
**********************************************************************************
I'm an editor for The McGill Tribune, and we're working on a story
about abusive professors at McGill. We believe the time is right for
change, and we're hoping to break the culture of silence surrounding
this issue. We're looking for testimonials to inform our piece. If
anyone is interested in telling their story, or has insight to offer,
please email alexandra.harvey@mail.mcgill.ca. Everything can be confidential and off the record, if you wish. Our primary motive with this is to support survivors.
For further reference, please see this thread: http://www.poliscirumors.com/topic/repeated-sexual-harassment-at-mcgill-poli-sci
Thanks & all the best.
The problem is, there are three professors at that department that fit
his description: MB, RB, and KMM.
Saideman, you might as well just say who it is. Because now two innocent
people are implicated as potential abusers.
2. *Saideman*
Rep: 91
Um, note the highlighting. And, given the emails and other messages I
have received, there is no confusion here.
3. *Kylie*
Reading comprehension is apparently hard for OP.
4. *Yasmina*
This is a serious charge. Not to be thrown around like "I was informally
told, he is a pervert" Was there a court case? If not, shut the fvk up!
5. *Dionysus*
For once mods aren't being Paternos and you go and show that there are
Paternos among the posters as well...
6. *Saideman*
Rep: 91
In terms of due process (which can take many forms, with court cases
being only one of them), there was one event, which was adjudicated within
the university. The university process found for the person who complained.
The reports of offenses occurring both before and after this one event? Not
adjudicated in court.
7. *Yasmina*
"adjudicated within the university" Are you joking? This is a serious
crime. If true, must be tried in a court of law not a kangaroo court. Do
you remember the Rolling Stone rape case?
In terms of due process (which can take many forms, with court cases
being only one of them), there was one event, which was adjudicated within
the university. The university process found for the person who complained.
The reports of offenses occurring both before and after this one event? Not
adjudicated in court.
8. *Mathilde*
Good on you, Steve. The confidentiality of harassment proceedings serves
a purpose when there is not yet a pattern of behavior, but when someone has
had repeated accusations by multiple individuals, that confidentiality's
value has to be weighed against the rights of future victims. The current
system ignores this and thus puts our students at risk.
9.*Avril*
Wow, that's surprising. It's always weird when you realize that someone
you respect is an asshole.
10. *Marlyn*
Philis is slow
11.*Paige*
"In terms of due process (which can take many forms, with court cases
being only one of them).... "
Seriously? Do you even know what "due process" is? Preponderance of
evidence, which is the flimsy standard used by university tribunals, is not
due process. Not allowing to question your accuser, or to have a lawyer
present, is not due process.
12.*Alicia*
Um, note the highlighting. And, given the emails and other messages I
have received, there is no confusion here.
If you're going on record to say that you're outing RB, why not just
have the sack to say his name?
13.*Hewie*
"For once mods aren't being Paternos"
Wrong. Mods deleted a post questioning the reliability of the
accusation.
14. *Joe*
S, I respect the fact that you are not engaging in victim blaming. Much
respect.
15.*Saideman*
Rep: 91
Basic social science, Joe. When the behavior is repeated over decades
and always involves the same perpetrator, that which is co-varies is ...
But thanks. Too often the targets get blamed and shamed.
16.*Sybilla*
Fascinating. I posted a takedown of Sadie that included exactly the same
level of evidence that he produced, and he immediately deleted it. I know
that Sadie deleted it because he then replied to the thread.
I seriously hope that you get sued, Saideman, and that you lose. The
response to sexual predation is not vigilantism. If the system is broken,
fix the system and punish the ones breaking the system. When you start
relying on social media mobs and trial by punditry, you have abandoned law,
order, and the moral high ground.
22 YEA 25 NAY!
17.*Saideman*
Rep: 91
Sybilla,
Posting a lie about me? No, I am not going to let that stick around
here. Yes, I knew you were trying to prove a point, but I actually do have
data and am not just hurling anonymous accusations.
The turn to social media, my blog (I didn't post my blog here--someone
else did), was precisely aimed at preventing yet another student have their
education disrupted by a serial harasser. The institution failed
repeatedly--over decades. So, how does one fix an institution? How does one
fix the system? Perhaps a little transparency? At the very least, it means
that students have a little more awareness and warning about who they
should not work with.
27 YEA 13 NAY!
18.*Sybilla*
You fix the institution by unveiling the administrators who swept
problems under the rug. You do NOT post unsubstantiated claims online about
specific, identifiable people. You have data, you say? Then provide it. All
you've given are your personal anecdotes with absolutely NO indication that
YOU are not posting lies. An ipse dixit doesn't cut it.
24 YEA 21 NAY!
19.*Joe*
"Sybilla,
The institution failed repeatedly--over decades. So, how does one fix an
institution? How does one fix the system? Perhaps a little transparency? At
the very least, it means that students have a little more awareness and
warning about who they should not work with."
This.
10 YEA 8 NAY!
20.*Sybilla*
There's a reason that our legal system says that an accused can face the
accusers. It's to prevent exactly the sort of thing that you are doing.
Yes, it hurts the accusers, and yes that's a problem, but we live in a
fallen world. What you're doing feels good to you and will get you
accolades from the "right set" of people in your little bubble, but that
doesn't make it the *right* thing. You should know better, but you'd
have to pull your ideological head out of your ass first to cross-examine
your own actions.
15 YEA 19 NAY
21.
Note that if you respond to the adjudication process, and if you are
right, then NOT ONLY the individual you're attacking will feel the fallout,
but ALSO anyone else who is slipping through.
As it is, you've just undermined your own authority again.
8 YEA 8 NAY!
22. *Kerr*
Adjudication Process should be criticized, but that will not help anyone
in the near term.
1 year ago #
7 YEA 5 NAY!
23. *Sybilla*
"Adjudication Process should be criticized, but that will not help anyone
in the near term."
Neither do lynch mobs. That's why we have judicial processes.
9 YEA 11 NAY!
24.*Saideman*
Rep: 89
Sybilla,
Since I am not there anymore, I cannot take aside each potential student
(how would that work?) to warn them. Instead, my intent was to warn others
away from this particular person to stop the process from playing out again
and again. I didn't want to be complicit anymore with the conspiracy of
silence that abets the perpetrator.
As a result of my post, I have been interviewed by the student paper,
and that conversation did indeed focus on process and on the university.
This is not a one and done thing. Your posts here have been helpful as I
have been thinking of next steps. I have already pointed out on twitter
that the new provost is the old poli sci dept chair, so he knows what the
past record is, and has done nothing. So, we are not that far apart.
16 YEA 6 NAY!
25. *Sybilla*
I have to go for a while. I hope, Saideman, that you will think about
the extent to which seeking social justice permits you to
abolish/side-step/ignore legal justice rather than reform legal justice.
7 YEA 23 NAY!
26.*Shanice*
Nobody's mentioned the obviously correct response. Sexually harass the
harasser back.
5 YEA 8 NAY!
27. *Kerr*
"Sybilla,
Since I am not there anymore, I cannot take a side each potential
student (how would that work?) to warn them. Instead, my intent was to warn
others away from this particular person to stop the process from playing
out again and again. I didn't want to be complicit anymore with the
conspiracy of silence that abets the perpetrator.
As a result of my post, I have been interviewed by the student paper,
and that conversation did indeed focus on process and on the university.
This is not a one and done thing. Your posts here have been helpful as I
have been thinking of next steps. I have already pointed out on twitter
that the new provost is the old poli sci dept chair, so he knows what the
past record is, and has done nothing. So, we are not that far apart"
Steve, I wish more people would do what you are doing.
15 YEA 9 NAY!
(Brynen showing us all how cool and badass he is, because you know, chicks love that kind of stuff)
28. *Wilson*
Sybilla - McGill has no formal sexual harassment complaint policy or
process for students at the undergraduate or graduate level. Basic
processes and rights have been developed for TAs, but that's pretty much
the limit. The arbitration process, like many institutions, is thus pretty
murky when and if it does occur it's ad hoc. The result of this case was
clear, as Saideman said: in the one formal complaint launched, they found
for the student. That's not a rumor: the finding was clear. There were
repercussions: while the professor wasn't fired, they faced restrictions on
supervision and were placed in an office where neighbours could keep an eye
on them. Years later, the repercussions laid on the professor responsible
have been relinquished, and while there has been no new formal complaint
launched, students have admitted to new issues arising. Most students don't
file complaints because the process is murky and uncertain.
This is an issue that is not particular to large American institutions
and Saideman's comments only serve as a warning to future students. Of
course, anything you hear should be taken with a degree of caution but I
think it's fair to say the university has done a lot to quell rumors of
serial sexual harassment by professors in recent years. It goes well beyond
the political science department. The McGill Daily released an anonymous
student's claims about serial sexual harassment in September and opened an
anonymous submission service where students could further report relations.
It pushed forward the debate on the need for a concrete sexual harassment,
especially following one student's court case against 3 Rugby players for
rape in 2013-4.
12 YEA 5 NAY!
29.*Hewie*
"Adjudication Process should be criticized, but that will not help anyone
in the near term."
"Neither do lynch mobs. That's why we have judicial processes"
Being that I am totally in favor of Internet mobbing (so long as I am
not the target) I'm gonna have to go ahead and "nay" you.
7 YEA 3 NAY!
30.*The Drake*
Saideman is widely viewed as a joke among most actual political
scientists. His narcissistic demagoguery on this site only contributes to
it. His contribution to the discipline is not significant enough to provide
him a repsectavle pedestal from which to speak with any authority. I will
reject out of hand anything that I ever see from the guy. His incitement of
an Internet lynch mob just makes it worse. Saideman should resign from this
site for the sake of his own professional reputation.
13 YEA 33 NAY!
31.*Mathilde*
Perhaps Steve is a bit narcissistic, but that's hardly an uncommon trait
today. But please, The Drake, post under your own real name so that we can
judge your record and decide whether your CV is good enough for us to care
about what you say. I'm not a fanboy of "Sadie," but having followed the
site for a while, I do think that he now and then provides some useful
advice to people who have terrible grad advisors.
You want advice from the top 5 sages in the field? Call them up and see
if they give you even 10 minutes of their time.
"Saideman is widely viewed as a joke among most actual political
scientists. His narcissistic demagoguery on this site only contributes to
it. His contribution to the discipline is not significant enough to provide
him a repsectavle pedestal from which to speak with any authority. I will
reject out of hand anything that I ever see from the guy. His incitement of
an Internet lynch mob just makes it worse. Saideman should resign from this
site for the sake of his own professional reputation"
23 YEA 4 NAY!
32. *York*
I have honestly lost all respect to Sadie. You are an insult to the
liberal tradition that created the very profession you occupy.
Do this the right way, not behind your s**tty blog. It's cowardly and
slimy.
That's rather petty of you. Saideman is on a quest--to engineer a
revolutionary takeover of an academic institution to which he feels a
certain affinity and connection. Your bourgeois morality couldn't be more
irrelevant to that quest. Saideman has the will to rule, and we must submit
upon entering his space. I have no problem with that.
5 YEA 2 NAY!
33.*York*
Saideman should resign from this site
for the sake of his own professional reputation.
Saideman's reputation is secure. It won't be changing any time soon, and
in fact would be almost impossible to change.
It's the reputation of this site I worry about.
3 YEA 3 NAY!
34. *Ash*
I'm more interested in why Steve's office was already in a remote area?
"he got moved out of his office in a remote location and put next to my
office"
5 YEA 2 NAY!
35.*Emmie*
Sadie - I imagine you're aware of what has happened at UBC re sexual
harassment in history. Lots of people knew and very few did anything for
years. There were more victims. Different context, but Jian Ghomeshi
assaulted for decades.
I'm not in favour of lynchings and I understand the value of due
process. I think we've now got enough evidence to show though that we need
to have some way of dealing with problems that aren't always formally
reported. It is hard to justify putting more students in harm's way when a
little information could prevent that.
I'm not 100% sure if the path of action you took was the "right" one,
but I really really really appreciate what you are trying to do. Too few
people stick their necks out to protect others. Thank you.
Sexual harassment in universities is a really serious problem, and an
often invisible force that results in students dropping out, developing
mental health problems, changing research programs, doing poorly in
classes, etc. Universities must have some sort of duty of care to not
knowingly put students at risk.
5 YEA 2 NAY!
36.*Saideman*
Rep: 89
"I'm more interested in why Steve's office was already in a remote area?
"he got moved out of his office in a remote location and put next to my
office"
Perhaps I was not clear: the guy's office was in a different building
from the building where most of the poli sci offices are. He got moved back
to the main building, next to my office, for a while. But he then was able
to move back to a remote location where his predation would be less likely
to be noticed.
10 YEA 3 NAY!
37.*Elisa*
"Sexual harassment in universities is a really serious problem, and an
often invisible force that results in students dropping out, developing
mental health problems, changing research programs, doing poorly in
classes, etc. Universities must have some sort of duty of care to not
knowingly put students at risk."
Agree, but can't forget about grad to grad sexual harassment. Lot's of
work needs to be done.
3 YEA 2 NAY!
38.*Kaylyn*
Would love to see the correlation, on gender lines, between those
attacking Sadie and those decrying him for doing an end run around due
process (which has been shown isn't available within McGill). [Male here
supporting Sadie.]
5 YEA 5 NAY!
39.*Kaylyn*
CORRECTED: Would love to see the correlation, on gender lines, between
those supporting Sadie and those decrying him for doing an end run around
due process (which has been shown isn't available within McGill). [Male
here supporting Sadie.]
3 YEA 5 NAY!
41.
CORRECTED: Would love to see the correlation, on gender lines, between
those supporting Sadie and those decrying him for doing an end run around
due process (which has been shown isn't available within McGill). [Male
here supporting Sadie.]
I'm sure Sadie appreciates your support, but unless you're at McGill it
really doesn't gave anything to do with you.
5 YEA 4 NAY!
42.*Romy*
McGill administration must be held accountable. They have been aware of
RB's abuse of power for some time; this abuse of power need not only be
sexual. When students have come forth, complaints were quickly brushed
aside.
13 YEA 3 NAY!
43. *Elijah*
What exactly is alleged to have been going on here? What do you mean by
predation, and abuse of power? I hate all these vague terms. Either say
something meaningful and specific so we can know what to watch out for, or
... Say nothing.
Someone told me McGill was one of the best places for Middle East
politics. If faculty are abusive predators I want to know more of what that
means.
11 YEA 2 NAY!
44.*Saideman*
Rep: 91
Elijah,
I cannot get into specifics nor do you need any. All I can say is that
the individual in question has harassed his female advisees for at least
two decades. So, if you are male, you might not think this would affect
you, but working with him would taint you and probably put you in awkward
positions. When the story breaks, as it does every once in a while, all
those involved with this guy end up affected by it. So, no, if you do
mideast stuff, go elsewhere. McG is good at many things, but that corner is
toxic.
7 YEA 7 NAY!
45.*Jeremy*
Why did they get away with it for so long?
1 YEA 2 NAY!
46.*Saideman*
Rep: 91
a few reasons:
a) students drop out rather than go through reporting process
b) students are often blamed for what happens
c) students who file complaints have to agree to confidentiality, which
limits who knows what
d) institutions prefer not to take this stuff seriously since serious
efforts would become public
I am sure there are other reasons/dynamics ...
17 YEA 2 NAY!
47.*Romy*
Saideman, your advice is wrong. There are others who do Middle East and
they would be great to work this. Plus, a research agenda does not need to
be area studies focused. Montreal is an amazing place to live for graduate
students, and there is expertise from three other campuses in the vicinity
to draw from.. The person in question needs to be controlled, reprimanded,
whatever so that he stops harming people/students. Advising all students
not to go to McGill because of one freak is simply WRONG advice.
6 YEA 17 NAY!
48.*Saideman*
Rep: 91
Romy,
I didn't say that students shouldn't go to McGill. I said that poli sci
students who do Mideast stuff should not go to McGill. If you want to work
with a great person in Montreal at UdeM, Concordia, or UQAM, go there. Or
if you are in sociology, history, Islamic studies (although reports of the
harassment in Islamic studies made the papers last fall), or econ, then go
there and then take classes from Medani. Until McGill does something
serious about its Brynen problem, it would be a mistake to send your
graduate students who do Mideast stuff to that program.
Enough students have had their careers disrupted and even derailed.
15 YEA 6 NAY!
RB has proclaimed himsef a feminist in the past - in the grand tradition ofHugo Schwyzer
49.*Yasmina*
Jews don't like his pro-Palestine approach and do anything to discredit
him. Even making up personal stories. What a crazy world.
" Romy,
I didn't say that students shouldn't go to McGill. I said that poli sci
students who do Mideast stuff should not go to McGill. If you want to work
with a great person in Montreal at UdeM, Concordia, or UQAM, go there. Or
if you are in sociology, history, Islamic studies (although reports of the
harassment in Islamic studies made the papers last fall), or econ, then go
there and then take classes from Medani. Until McGill does something
serious about its Brynen problem, it would be a mistake to send your
graduate students who do Mideast stuff to that program.
Enough students have had their careers disrupted and even derailed"
4 YEA 33 NAY!
50*Saideman*
Rep: 91
I was wondering when someone would try this tactic. Nope, Yasmina, there
is an existing record and established pattern, and it has nothing to do
with his stance on Palestine.
Yes, RB has had political problems within the department over his
political stances, but he got hired and tenured anyway. This matter is
entirely about his interactions with graduate students. If you want to deny
that because he has a stance you like, then go ahead.
14 YEA 7 NAY!
51. *Ash*
Why does ME studies attract megalomaniacs, lechers, and 75% of deadwood?
Over the years I've met plenty of people who study ME (usually "area
studies" types) who are the worst department citizen.
11 YEA 1 NAY!
52. *Terance*
Why is it a problem for me to state that I oppose sexists and sexual
harassers? What is the issue with that statement??
4 YEA 1 NAY!
53.*Yasmina*
You can't accuse someone of a serious crime without a fair trial. Even
in Canada. That's the problem.
"Why is it a problem for me to state that I oppose sexists and sexual
harassers? What is the issue with that statement??"
4 YEA 8 NAY!
54.*Beryl*
Saideman, were you not denied promotion at McGill?
Bones to pick, much?
I mean, you've always struck me ax quite bitter about your experience
there. Is this mired of the same? What gives.
7 YEA 9 NAY!
55. *Saideman*
Rep: 91
The funny thing, Beryl, is that RB was one of the few Full professors
that was willing to vote to promote me. So, no, this is not out of
bitterness (although I did feel icky or uncomfy with his support).
The more I look back at my time at McG and the distance I get from the
promotion fiascoes, the more I can value the good stuff. And there was
plenty of it. Besides the bureaucracy trying to fire me twice for their not
processing my work permits, the only real conflict I had was with the
majority of the Fulls, and they are being diluted now that the other
Associates of my time are getting promoted. McGill was very good to me in
many ways, so I am not so bitter. But I am frustrated that they continue to
let a serial sexual harasser derail the academic careers of women who do
Mideast stuff.
10 YEA 5 NAY!
56. *Saideman*
Rep: 91
"You can't accuse someone of a serious crime without a fair trial. Even
in Canada. That's the problem.
Why is it a problem for me to state that I oppose sexists and sexual
harassers? What is the issue with that statement??"
Sure, you can accuse someone without a fair trial. You just cannot
punish them without due process.
And my problem with the guy who keeps getting deleted is that he is a
troll.
7 YEA 4 NAY!
57.*Beryl*
Saideman,
I hope you have a good lawyer, friend.
11 YEA 4 NAY!
58.*Saideman*
Rep: 91
And no need to create separate threads to question my motives. You can
do that right here.
2 YEA 2 NAY!
59.*Linwood*
Are you aware that Bryden has been tipped off about this thread and is
planning to engage lawyers tomorrow at 09.00?
"And no need to create separate threads to question my motives. You can
do that right here"
4 YEA 3 NAY!
60. *Saideman*
Rep: 91
Well, since his name is not Bryden, I am not sure. And since I have
given interviews to two student newspapers and their reporters told me that
the blog post has been widely shared, I am pretty sure that the word will
get back to the guy.
1 year ago #
3 YEA 2 NAY
61. *Nikolas*
"Robert and Yasmina, don't you wish that RB was a victim. RB is on record
telling female students, you need to do a, b,c, or I will cut off your
funding, or I will destroy your career etc...In other cases, he regularly
reminded students that as a tenured professor he could get away with
anything short of killing someone in a hallway. In some of these cases, the
interaction was not sexual, but his willingness to abuse power is nothing
short of criminal. If a student was unwilling to comply with his dictates,
he would withdraw funding and leave a student dry. His skill of turning
students against each other was nothing short of sick. Many of these
threats are verbal, so there is no documented record of these exchanges."
So he's on record as saying this but there's no documented record of
these exchanges? Huh?
9 YEA 4 NAY!
62*Normina*
That about sums up the kangaroo court intifada that Sadie is leading
here.
9 YEA 7 NAY!
63.*Leroy*
He seems to be/have been a fairly popular undergraduate teacher.
What about his scholarship? How has this been received?
Quality/quantity? Respect in the field? Or is he someone who just lords it
over less powerful people in his own backyard, but amounts to little in the
wider profession?
Also - what exactly would the demands for a, b, or c (referred to above)
have entailed? Sexual favours? RA work? Revisions on a thesis? Collecting
the dry cleaning? I don't get it.
3 YEA 1 NAY!
64.*Flip*
"He seems to be/have been a fairly popular undergraduate teacher.
What about his scholarship? How has this been received?
Quality/quantity? Respect in the field? Or is he someone who just lords it
over less powerful people in his own backyard, but amounts to little in the
wider profession?
Also - what exactly would the demands for a, b, or c (referred to above)
have entailed? Sexual favours? RA work? Revisions on a thesis? Collecting
the dry cleaning? I don't get it."
He was incredibly popular, and many former students, myself included,
have a difficult time believing the charges. But that's how these things
always start.
8 YEA 3 NAY!
65.*Nikolas*
When he was nailed, there was a documented record. He usually pays
students to organize the teaching award nominations and supporting letters.
You are probably among those losers Santos and Normina.
8 YEA 3 NAY!
66.*Santos*
"When he was nailed, there was a documented record. He usually pays
students to organize the teaching award nominations and supporting letters.
You are probably among those losers Santos and Normina."
Ahh more baseless allegations. Looking forward to your proof.
4 YEA 7 NAY!
67.*Nikolas*
By the way, RB is a white man.
6 YEA 1 NAY!
68.*Raoul*
The point our hero Sadie is missing, is that if this dude or his victims
are tuned into this convo, the victims are possibly fearing or experiencing
retaliation right now. If our hero wanted to do something productive he
should have directly approached high up McGill admin
8 YEA 4 NAY!
69.*Nikolas*
I do not know if this is the best way to address this problem. I do know
that the confidentiality 'promises' protect the university and the predator
more than they protect the victims.
McGill administration knows about many of these 'things'. When all of
RB's female students either dropped him as a supervisor or dropped out of
the program, McGill admin did not ask a SINGLE question. Perhaps no abuse
was involved at that time, but the fact of the matter was that women had no
support in the program and often felt unwelcome. When RB and his paid
losers launched character assassination campaigns about how RB was simply
unlucky to end with so many mentally unstable female grad student, McGill
admin stood by and did nothing. The repercussions for many of his former
students were huge.
20 YEA 5 NAY!
70.*Ruthie*
" I do not know if this is the best way to address this problem. I do know
that the confidentiality 'promises' protect the university and the predator
more than they protect the victims.
McGill administration knows about many of these 'things'. When all of
RB's female students either dropped him as a supervisor or dropped out of
the program, McGill admin did not ask a SINGLE question. Perhaps no abuse
was involved at that time, but the fact of the matter was that women had no
support in the program and often felt unwelcome. When RB and his paid
losers launched character assassination campaigns about how RB was simply
unlucky to end with so many mentally unstable female grad student, McGill
admin stood by and did nothing. The repercussions for many of his former
students were huge."
The only "character assassination campaign" I see is this thread.
7 YEA 12 NAY!
71.*Chun*
I'm not a prof and never will be but I was an undergrad at McGill and
took classes with both RB and MB. Even back in the early 2000s, there was
talk of RB and his flat-out misogyny and how he had coerced several of his
female grad students into a sexual relationship, it got so bad it had
petered down to the undergrads! MB was just a creep, he made it known he
was available to quite a number of his more attractive female students but
wanted his female students to start things off so in case he got caught
with ole wifey, he could always say "she made me do it".
McGill's harassment officers are a joke, mental health services are also
substandard and the workshops offered by SEDE are not mandatory for faculty
when they should be. All of this is of course exacerbated when the profs in
question have full tenure, they're basically Teflon at that point. For
victims, there are not many avenues for dealing with this problem so I
personally have no problem outing these predators online. Short of someone
catching footage or recording conversations on their phones and posting it
online for all and sundry to see and hear, it should happen more often. As
for being "ruined professionally" - simple solution, don't act like an
entitled dick in the first place.
38 YEA 5 NAY!
72.*Maitland*
I knew a guy who did undergrad there. He used to brag about how one of
his profs always high-fived him for sleeping with various other students.
Apparently they talked about it regularly.
Fairly revolting if you ask me.
26 YEA 1 NAY!
73.*Calista*
I also have to agree that victims of this sort of harassment and
behavior have very little recourse and more often than not, internalize
this damage which results in things like PTSD and depression, lost
professional advancement and opportunity while the rat walks off scott-free
and even has the institution protect his sorry ass. 1) Very often, no one
believes the story because of the privilege professors hold in society
(upright citizen, pillar of the community and other associated projected
BS) 2) The power differential between prof and student is so large and gives
so much room for abuse that very often the victim feels they have to stay
silent 3) Many victims just walk away from the situation instead of dealing
with it head-on and hope it will just go away over time when it doesn't.
37 YEA 0 NAY!
74.*Linzi*
Calista: I agree with you in the abstract, but as a male I also wonder
how issues would play out. If a student falsely accused me of coming on to
her in exchange for a grade, or making harassing comments, or whatever...
would people actually believe me? I might survive with my job, that's true.
I am not sure tho that people would actually believe that I was innocent,
even with my privileged position.
1 YEA 3 NAY!
75.*Piper*
"Calista: I agree with you in the abstract, but as a male I also wonder
how issues would play out. If a student falsely accused me of coming on to
her in exchange for a grade, or making harassing comments, or whatever...
would people actually believe me? I might survive with my job, that's true.
I am not sure tho that people would actually believe that I was innocent,
even with my privileged position."
Do you lie awake at night worrying that someone will falsely accuse you
of theft? Or murder? Or are you only worried about being falsely accused of
sexual misconduct? Because the false report rate in all these cases is
similar. Yet only one plays into our cultural narrative that women are
hysterical/desperate/vindictive, so guess which one people actually pay
attention to?
I wish people would spend less time worrying about the extremely
improbable possibility of being falsely accused of sexual assault, and
instead spend more time listening to and supporting the many many victims
of sexual assault, ~60% of whom never even report the crime (without a
doubt largely because they fear the mass hysteria about false rape claims).
39 YEA 1 NAY!
76.*Beatrix*
Just for the record, there appears to be several "MB"s at McGill, a
couple of whom presumably are pretty great people.
"MB was just a creep..."
14 YEA 2 NAY!
77.*Julie*
I know of two off the top:
Michael Brechet (very senior/elderly)
Mark Brawley (likely candidate?)
22 YEA 2 NAY!
78.*Gwenyth*
That's both fair and true, but I would like to have a fair trial if I'm
accused of murder or theft or rape. The "false accusations are rare"
argument generally leads to "and so when someone accuses you, you must have
done it" - we don't make those assumptions about murders, why are we
frequently asked to make them about rape (a crime certainly in the same
league of awfulness)?
"Do you lie awake at night worrying that someone will falsely accuse you
of theft? Or murder? Or are you only worried about being falsely accused of
sexual misconduct? Because the false report rate in all these cases is
similar. Yet only one plays into our cultural narrative that women are
hysterical/desperate/vindictive, so guess which one people actually pay
attention to?"
2 YEA 1 NAY!
79.*Santos*
This thread is just a lawsuit waiting to happen.
1 YEA 8 NAY!
80.*Piper*
"and so when someone accuses you, you must have done it" - we don't make
those assumptions about murders, why are we frequently asked to make them
about rape (a crime certainly in the same league of awfulness)?
Um probably because with murder the victim cannot identify the
perpetrator, on account of being dead. Whereas with rape the victim is also
the witness. This is how I think of it, anyway, but its all moot because..
you would get a fair trial. Less than 10% of reported rapes result in a
conviction. In many cases, this is because the court doesn't think the
victim's testimony is enough to go off of. Outside of a few outlier cases,
the phenomenon you fear doesn't seem to actually exist (outside of
sensationalist online news articles).
13 YEA 5 NAY
81.Jon
"I know of two off the top:
Michael Brechet (very senior/elderly)
Mark Brawley (likely candidate?)"
Brecher is 91. Somehow I don't think its him, unless we're talking about
harassment during that wild and crazy year of 1968.
33 YEA 2 NAY!
82.*Calista*
"Just for the record, there appears to be several "MB"s at McGill, a
couple of whom presumably are pretty great people.
MB was just a creep..."
MRB.
38 YEA 2 NAY!
83.*Hewie*
"Do you lie awake at night worrying that someone will falsely accuse you
of theft? Or murder? Or are you only worried about being falsely accused of
sexual misconduct? Because the false report rate in all these cases is
similar."
Wrong. False rape reports are far more common than for other crimes.
6 YEA 23 NAY!
84.*Emmie*
source?
1 YEA 10 NAY!
85.*Julie*
You must not have seen the documentary series "making a murderer" -
which seems to make the case that there are no fair trials in America,
even/especially for murder. The police made their accusation and the
prosecution did whatever they could to get their man (as opposed to finding
out what happened.)
"That's both fair and true, but I would like to have a fair trial if I'm
accused of murder or theft or rape. The "false accusations are rare"
argument generally leads to "and so when someone accuses you, you must have
done it" - we don't make those assumptions about murders, why are we
frequently asked to make them about rape (a crime certainly in the same
league of awfulness)?"
"Do you lie awake at night worrying that someone will falsely accuse you
of theft? Or murder? Or are you only worried about being falsely accused of
sexual misconduct? Because the false report rate in all these cases is
similar. Yet only one plays into our cultural narrative that women are
hysterical/desperate/vindictive, so guess which one people actually pay
attention to?"
0 YEA 5 NAY!
86.*Hewie*
"source?"
You're guilty. We don need no stinkin source.
5 YEA 1 NAY!
87.*Linzi*
"I agree that false reports are rare. I 100% agree. Let's get that out of
the way first."
I think that men might have reasonable concerns about false accusations
anyway, especially when there are stories about such*. It's a Type I, Type
Ii error situation. When you make it easier to punish accused wrongdoers,
you will naturally raise the risk of persecuting innocent people. As a
male, I want to help women who are harmed by members of my sex. I want
justice for victims. I also want to make sure that, in the **very unlikely
but not zero** probability I was falsely accused, my rights would also be
protected.
It's better to engage men (not trolls or meninist types) in a dialogue
rather than shutting the door as soon as false reporting comes up.
(* You call false report stories sensational, and they can be treated as
such by the right-wing or men's rights types. But the Rolling Stone piece
cast the aspersions of assault and violent gang rape on an entire
fraternity. That really happened---it's not sensational to point to this as
an example, even while acknowledging that it's rare. So is terrorism or
murder, but it doesn't mean that we shouldn't care about it.)
17 YEA 3 NAY!
1 of 2 McGill papers finally released their commentary on the issue.
0 YEA 1 NAY!
89.*Jamie*
"I agree that false reports are rare. I 100% agree. Let's get that out of
the way first.
I think that men might have reasonable concerns about false accusations
anyway, especially when there are stories about such*. It's a Type I, Type
Ii error situation. When you make it easier to punish accused wrongdoers,
you will naturally raise the risk of persecuting innocent people. As a
male, I want to help women who are harmed by members of my sex. I want
justice for victims. I also want to make sure that, in the **very unlikely
but not zero** probability I was falsely accused, my rights would also be
protected.
It's better to engage men (not trolls or meninist types) in a dialogue
rather than shutting the door as soon as false reporting comes up.
(* You call false report stories sensational, and they can be treated as
such by the right-wing or men's rights types. But the Rolling Stone piece
cast the aspersions of assault and violent gang rape on an entire
fraternity. That really happened---it's not sensational to point to this as
an example, even while acknowledging that it's rare. So is terrorism or
murder, but it doesn't mean that we shouldn't care about it.)"
Piper here. Fair enough, I can get behind everything you've said. I
don't blame feminist groups for focusing their resources on sexual assault
victims rather than false reports, though it's sad to me that the advocacy
groups who have picked up the issue are ... well... not as well-reasoned as
you to put it nicely (or misogynistic conspiracy theorists, to put it more
bluntly).
1 YEA 1 NAY!
90.*Chun*
"Smart one on the part of RB and his losers. By dragging in MRB, they
think they are going to discredit the entire thread. Most will attest to
MRB's decency, as opposed to RB's lack of integrity."
Gimme a break. There are some that experienced MRB's duplicity and
neurotic creepiness firsthand, public image be damned. Granted, he's not a
full-on predator like RB, in contrast, he's quite harmless, but there are
other ways of acting inappropriately around students. Just because you
don't see it, doesn't mean it's not there.
32 YEA 5 NAY!
91.*Santos*
Why do posts about a potential lawsuit or comments re. legal
representation keep getting deleted?
4 YEA 1 NAY!
92.*Ambre*
because Sadie.
4 YEA 2 NAY!
93.*Isabelle*
I just read the McGill Daily article. Poorly written, lacking in any
special insight or information. Almost completely reliant on "evidence"
from Saideman! Just quotes his blog posts. No original arguments, just
hand-wringing windbaggery. What gives - I thought McGill students were
supposed to be super smart.
"http://www.mcgilldaily.com/2016/03/the-vicious-circle-of-professor-student-relationships/
1 of 2 McGill papers finally released their commentary on the issue."
1 YEA 15 NAY!
94.*Chun*
"I just read the McGill Daily article. Poorly written, lacking in any
special insight or information. Almost completely reliant on "evidence"
from Saideman! Just quotes his blog posts. No original arguments, just
hand-wringing windbaggery. What gives - I thought McGill students were
supposed to be super smart."
"http://www.mcgilldaily.com/2016/03/the-vicious-circle-of-professor-student-relationships/
1 of 2 McGill papers finally released their commentary on the issue."
In that case, you should read this one :
http://www.mcgilldaily.com/2015/09/lets-talk-about-teacher-2/
and this :
http://www.mcgilldaily.com/LetsTalkAboutTeacher/posts.php
23 YEA 2 NAY!
95.*Eireann*
Someone alerted me to this thread today, and given what's happening
these days with the Jian Ghomeshi trail, I feel I have to speak out. To
what Calista said, absolutely, there are plenty of inappropriate ways a
profs can act which can then make students feel extreme discomfort and
confusion. It's doesn't have to be overtly threatening or sexual but still
causes discomfort nonetheless. I can't say anything about some of the
initials being thrown around here but even in the mid-late 1990s, I had
heard on the LGBTQ grapevine what a misogynist RB was with his female grad
students.
There's lots of examples of inappropriate behaviour which doesn't get
called out and picked up on because the perpetrators are operating in this
massive grey-zone which McGill's policies doesn't cover and unless it's
recorded and with witnesses, what proof does it stand on? It simply doesn't.
Even though a prof is never supposed to touch a student because that IS
a form of harassment. Even though a prof is never supposed to make a
student feel uncomfortable. Even though a prof isn't supposed to go through
the private records of a student. All of that becomes a moot point when it
becomes a game of "he said, she said". So yeah, I'm with Chun and Calista,
expose these weirdos somewhere.
24 YEA 2 NAY!
96.*Ruthie*
"though it's sad to me that the advocacy groups who have picked up the
issue are ... well... not as well-reasoned as you to put it nicely (or
misogynistic conspiracy theorists, to put it more bluntly)."
Please. Stop with the "conspiracy theory" ad hominem. It makes you look
ignorant. Read Reason magazine's takedown of David Lisak. He is the source
of most of the statistical justification for the "rape culture" scare, and
now his pants are nearly as far down his ankles as Mike Lacour.
1 YEA 14 NAY!
97.*Ruthie*
"Even though a prof is never supposed to make a student feel
uncomfortable. Even though a prof isn't supposed to go through the private
records of a student."
You are obviously clueless. Profs are indeed expected to be familiar
with their advisees' records, and no one can control another person's
feelings.
3 YEA 18 NAY!
98.*Beryl*
OK, I read it. Wow. That is a powerful account and I believe it. Is this
student writing about MRB, RB, or someone else? Holy cow.
" In that case, you should read this one :
http://www.mcgilldaily.com/2015/09/lets-talk-about-teacher-2/
and this : http://www.mcgilldaily.com/LetsTalkAboutTeacher/posts.php"
23 YEA 4 NAY!
99.*Micheal*
"OK, I read it. Wow. That is a powerful account and I believe it. Is this
student writing about MRB, RB, or someone else? Holy cow.
In that case, you should read this one :
http://www.mcgilldaily.com/2015/09/lets-talk-about-teacher-2/
and this : http://www.mcgilldaily.com/LetsTalkAboutTeacher/posts.php"
He's writing about STD
3 YEA 6 NAY!
100.*Ashlyn*
Someone else.
0 YEA 3 NAY
101.
Agree - if that's all we're talking about Sadie better lawyer up
2 YEA 4 NAY!
102. *Aureole*
Perhaps this isn't the 'ideal' way to approach this issue, but the
'ideal' strategy risks jeopardizing a student's career. We are readily
willing to dismiss accusations against our colleagues and friends,
particularly when they are well regarded and part of extended networks
others are relying on for placement, references, review, etc. In the
meantime, students are left in a position of jeopardizing their funding,
academic reputations (should they leave and attempt to seek an alternate
program), and are often isolated with the department/cohort community as
their strongest foundation as a result of relocation. This is not as simple
as 'report it and move on'.
Sadie's strategy is brave and empathetic. This is an issue throughout
the discipline. Beyond exposure and censure we ought to consider creating a
mentoring network within the discipline for graduate students aimed at
supporting and navigating these issues, a specific network with
specialization and advocacy to centralize response, support resources, and
aid in identifying serial offenders.
Thank you Sadie for standing up for what is right and advocating for
those who find themselves in a perilous position of choosing between
graduate work and a safe working environment.
28 YEA 2 NAY!
103. *Sybilla*
"Perhaps this isn't the 'ideal' way to approach this issue, but the
'ideal' strategy risks jeopardizing a student's career. We are readily
willing to dismiss accusations against our colleagues and friends,
particularly when they are well regarded and part of extended networks
others are relying on for placement, references, review, etc. In the
meantime, students are left in a position of jeopardizing their funding,
academic reputations (should they leave and attempt to seek an alternate
program), and are often isolated with the department/cohort community as
their strongest foundation as a result of relocation. This is not as simple
as 'report it and move on'.
Sadie's strategy is brave and empathetic. This is an issue throughout
the discipline. Beyond exposure and censure we ought to consider creating a
mentoring network within the discipline for graduate students aimed at
supporting and navigating these issues, a specific network with
specialization and advocacy to centralize response, support resources, and
aid in identifying serial offenders.
Thank you Sadie for standing up for what is right and advocating for
those who find themselves in a perilous position of choosing between
graduate work and a safe working environment."
Just think of all those brave Salem witch-burners!
Now who has a Satanic mole?
3 YEA 17 NAY!
104. *Sharlene*
Zero witches were burned at the stake you moron. They never made it
through the trials.
"Just think of all those brave Salem witch-burners!"
17 YEA 3 NAY!
105. *Sybilla*
"Zero witches were burned at the stake you moron. They never made it
through the trials."
"Just think of all those brave Salem witch-burners!"
You don't have to have burned witches to be a witch-burner. Just look at
all the people that call themselves "political scientists". Besides, leave
it to Sadie, and he'll make up the burning!
12 YEA 5 NAY!
106.*Ash*
She turned me into a newt!
2 YEA 14 NAY!
107.*Chun*
Gee whiz, who would have guessed that so many political scientists are
misogynistic victim blamers? It's always women who get the short end of the
stake.
What makes the thing vile is that these profs are married with kids,
happily so allegedly, they shouldn't be acting this way, that's just
selfish, immature, irresponsible and wrong. Who knows what kind of
arrangements and agreements they have with their partners, like
open-marriages, but somehow, given the secretive nature of these
inter-actions, I doubt that's what's going on. Instead, it sounds like a
gang of emotionally immature , emotionally-retarded boys, who were such
geeks in school and never got any action, suddenly given the keys to the
candy shop and going crazy, doing it as long as no one knows or can catch
them. Profs need to put it back in their pants and leave female students
alone.
36 YEA 6 NAY!
108.*Hewie*
"Gee whiz, who would have guessed that so many political scientists are
misogynistic victim blamers? It's always women who get the short end of the
stake.
What makes the thing vile is that these profs are married with kids,
happily so allegedly, they shouldn't be acting this way, that's just
selfish, immature, irresponsible and wrong. Who knows what kind of
arrangements and agreements they have with their partners, like
open-marriages, but somehow, given the secretive nature of these
inter-actions, I doubt that's what's going on. Instead, it sounds like a
gang of emotionally immature , emotionally-retarded boys, who were such
geeks in school and never got any action, suddenly given the keys to the
candy shop and going crazy, doing it as long as no one knows or can catch
them. Profs need to put it back in their pants and leave female students
alone."
Your problem is that one needs evidence that there is actually a victim
before making a case for victim-blaming.
6 YEA 14 NAY!
109. *Sybilla*
"Gee whiz, who would have guessed that so many political scientists are
misogynistic victim blamers? It's always women who get the short end of the
stake.
What makes the thing vile is that these profs are married with kids,
happily so allegedly, they shouldn't be acting this way, that's just
selfish, immature, irresponsible and wrong. Who knows what kind of
arrangements and agreements they have with their partners, like
open-marriages, but somehow, given the secretive nature of these
inter-actions, I doubt that's what's going on. Instead, it sounds like a
gang of emotionally immature , emotionally-retarded boys, who were such
geeks in school and never got any action, suddenly given the keys to the
candy shop and going crazy, doing it as long as no one knows or can catch
them. Profs need to put it back in their pants and leave female students
alone."
The problem isn't with victim-blaming. It's with Sadie's approach: no
evidence (he actually wrote that we don't need to know the evidence),
just-trust-me-let's-form-an-internet-mob-and-get-'em!
I'd bet that a majority of the antagonistic posters in this thread would
join the mob with pitchforks and torches if there were actual evidence. I
definitely would. But this idea of making someone with a tertiary
connection the judge and jury in a secret court (i.e., the court of Sadie's
mind) is what troubles us.
14 YEA 11 NAY!
110. *Casimir*
^ Agree completely - and without evidence we can't tell if it's just
another case of "let's talk about teacher" which was completely consensual
and without any harassment - or if it's something much worse...... The
range of possibilities in between a consensual relationship with a power
imbalance and rape / repeated harassment is pretty large and without any
specifics or evidence what Sadie is doing is completely irresponsible
7
YEA 10 NAY!
111.*Reynard*
"Gee whiz, who would have guessed that so many political scientists are
misogynistic victim blamers? It's always women who get the short end of the
stake.
What makes the thing vile is that these profs are married with kids,
happily so allegedly, they shouldn't be acting this way, that's just
selfish, immature, irresponsible and wrong. Who knows what kind of
arrangements and agreements they have with their partners, like
open-marriages, but somehow, given the secretive nature of these
inter-actions, I doubt that's what's going on. Instead, it sounds like a
gang of emotionally immature , emotionally-retarded boys, who were such
geeks in school and never got any action, suddenly given the keys to the
candy shop and going crazy, doing it as long as no one knows or can catch
them. Profs need to put it back in their pants and leave female students
alone"
Hear! Hear!
As for proof, unless some kind of APB alert goes out to all former
female students to come forward, a guarantee that their confidentiality
will be guaranteed and a stained dress a la Lewinsky, good luck Charlie at
getting any concrete "proof".
As for that piggy prof in the "Let's talk about Teacher" piece, it might
have been consensual but the power differential here is what left the
student reeling. I have no doubt the girl probably suffered some depression
and needed some counselling to understand what happened to her. I'm not
exonerating her, far from it, but for younger, more naive students, the
biggest problem with entering into a sexual relationship with your prof is
that the kind of prof who would sleep with their student is almost
inevitably going to be the kind that is a complete douche bag. The kind of
prof who would ever be worthy of such attention would never take advantage
of the position of power they have over students in their care. The massive
power imbalance remains. The Prof Crush is therefore a moral paradox, in
which the student will either be eternally frustrated because the object of
their affection is truly worthy and will therefore never sleep with them or
engage in similarly unseemly behaviour, or the student will be taken
advantage of by an old, horny pervert, and their fantasy will be ripped
away from them, feeling betrayed in a way they didn't even understand was
possible before it happened.
Some of these profs behaviour sounds calculating and predatory. They
used students to make themselves feel better, despite the consequences for
students. If they've done it once, more than likely they've done it many
times.
31 YEA 4 NAY!
112. *Ruthie*
"Gee whiz, who would have guessed that so many political scientists are
misogynistic victim blamers? It's always women who get the short end of the
stake.
What makes the thing vile is that these profs are married with kids,
happily so allegedly, they shouldn't be acting this way, that's just
selfish, immature, irresponsible and wrong. Who knows what kind of
arrangements and agreements they have with their partners, like
open-marriages, but somehow, given the secretive nature of these
inter-actions, I doubt that's what's going on. Instead, it sounds like a
gang of emotionally immature , emotionally-retarded boys, who were such
geeks in school and never got any action, suddenly given the keys to the
candy shop and going crazy, doing it as long as no one knows or can catch
them. Profs need to put it back in their pants and leave female students
alone."
"Hear! Hear!
As for proof, unless some kind of APB alert goes out to all former
female students to come forward, a guarantee that their confidentiality
will be guaranteed and a stained dress a la Lewinsky, good luck Charlie at
getting any concrete "proof".
As for that piggy prof in the "Let's talk about Teacher" piece, it might
have been consensual but the power differential here is what left the
student reeling. I have no doubt the girl probably suffered some depression
and needed some counselling to understand what happened to her. I'm not
exonerating her, far from it, but for younger, more naive students, the
biggest problem with entering into a sexual relationship with your prof is
that the kind of prof who would sleep with their student is almost
inevitably going to be the kind that is a complete douche bag. The kind of
prof who would ever be worthy of such attention would never take advantage
of the position of power they have over students in their care. The massive
power imbalance remains. The Prof Crush is therefore a moral paradox, in
which the student will either be eternally frustrated because the object of
their affection is truly worthy and will therefore never sleep with them or
engage in similarly unseemly behaviour, or the student will be taken
advantage of by an old, horny pervert, and their fantasy will be ripped
away from them, feeling betrayed in a way they didn't even understand was
possible before it happened.
Some of these profs behaviour sounds calculating and predatory. They
used students to make themselves feel better, despite the consequences for
students. If they've done it once, more than likely they've done it many
times."
Golly, a consensual sexual relationship ended badly. Someone must pay!
The fact is that *all* sexual relationships end badly. Either you break
up, or one of you dies.
This is why other people's sex lives are absolutely none of your
business. What busybody little prudes you people are.
7 YEA 22 NAY!
113.*Cree*
The issue is not about a consensual relationship. It is about a
professor being on record threatening to destroy a student's career if a
relationship ends or if others find out about the relationship. The
professor was nailed in this instance. In other instances, the professor's
threats were not on record, nor were they sexual in nature, but the
students still raised these issues to higher ups, and the administration
chose to ignore these threats. At the very least, and this is what Sadie is
pointing out, the administration should have been watching and monitoring
this professor carefully, and doing what they could to protect students.
28 YEA 2 NAY!
114. *Saideman*
Rep: 91
To follow on Cree's comments, and if a guy happens to be found guilty by
the university processes, maybe don't name him to be Director of
Undergraduate Studies...
23 YEA 3 NAY!
115.*Reynard*
"Golly, a consensual sexual relationship ended badly. Someone must pay!
The fact is that *all* sexual relationships end badly. Either you break
up, or one of you dies.
This is why other people's sex lives are absolutely none of your
business. What busybody little prudes you people are."
Ruthie dear, you really ought to stop watching so many soap operas for
your own good. And writing out generalist statements like "ALL sexual
relationships end badly" only shows up the limited spectrum of your own
projected life experience. You don't speak for others and their
experiences.
16 YEA 4 NAY!
116.*Ruthie*
"Golly, a consensual sexual relationship ended badly. Someone must pay!
The fact is that *all* sexual relationships end badly. Either you break
up, or one of you dies.
This is why other people's sex lives are absolutely none of your
business. What busybody little prudes you people are.
Ruthie dear, you really ought to stop watching so many soap operas for
your own good. And writing out generalist statements like "ALL sexual
relationships end badly" only shows up the limited spectrum of your own
projected life experience. You don't speak for others and their
experiences."
You're correct, I don't speak for other, and neither do you, so butt the
fieck out. Other people's sex lives are none of your business.
3 YEA 17 NAY!
117.*Jonathon*
"The issue is not about a consensual relationship. It is about a
professor being on record threatening to destroy a student's career if a
relationship ends or if others find out about the relationship. The
professor was nailed in this instance. In other instances, the professor's
threats were not on record, nor were they sexual in nature, but the
students still raised these issues to higher ups, and the administration
chose to ignore these threats. At the very least, and this is what Sadie is
pointing out, the administration should have been watching and monitoring
this professor carefully, and doing what they could to protect students.
Pretty much. But without any hard evidence or victims willing to come
forth and have to relive and go through the incidents in question all over
again, it would be easier to push molasses uphill than to go forward with
this. Bottom line: McGill won't help you if you're a victim and while I
also agree that Sadie is doing a good thing by exposing some of these
unsavoury types and help prevent future students from working them, it
won't amount to much, unless McGill's administration changes and that will
not happen anytime soon.
Recording devices have already been mentioned on this thread and cameras
are now as small and inconspicuous as pins, and very, very powerful. Smart
phones can record conversations while in your pocket or bag. There are apps
now where the screen goes black while continuing to record. If these profs
don't stop this kind of bullying and coercion, your best bet is to catch
them while engaged in this kind of behaviour"
18 YEA 1 NAY!
118.*Hewie*
"Golly, a consensual sexual relationship ended badly. Someone must pay!
The fact is that *all* sexual relationships end badly. Either you break
up, or one of you dies".
"This is why other people's sex lives are absolutely none of your
business. What busybody little prudes you people are."
" Ruthie dear, you really ought to stop watching so many soap operas for
your own good. And writing out generalist statements like "ALL sexual
relationships end badly" only shows up the limited spectrum of your own
projected life experience. You don't speak for others and their
experiences."
Ruthie's list appears exahustive to me: Either you break up or you die.
You got a third alternative, or are you gonna stick with the basic "snark
like a little bitch" move?
2 YEA 13 NAY!
119. *Jonathon*
"Ruthie's list appears exahustive to me: Either you break up or you die.
You got a third alternative, or are you gonna stick with the basic "snark
like a little bitch" move?"
Many people can and have remained friends after the end of a sexual
relationship. Its called maturity and acceptance, you should give it a shot
sometime.
21 YEA 4 NAY!
120.*Hewie*
"Ruthie's list appears exahustive to me: Either you break up or you die.
You got a third alternative, or are you gonna stick with the basic "snark
like a little bitch" move?"
"Many people can and have remained friends after the end of a sexual
relationship. Its called maturity and acceptance, you should give it a shot
sometime."
It's still a failed relationship, and thus fits into Ruthie's exhaustive
list.
The more important point that Ruthie made is that not all sexual
relationships end well, and when that happens, only nosy pathetic
bystanders feel the need to assign blame to one of the parties.
4 YEA 19 NAY
121.*Eiren*
Unfortunately some profs use their intelligence to manipulate people and
situations to an outcome that they want and they don't care how it effects
the other person. Neither does McGill. They'll lie, coerce, threaten, play
dumb, roll over etc.
Female students to be vigilant around some of them and record them if
need be. Just because someone is smart and erudite doesn't automatically
make them good, honest or decent.
23 YEA 3 NAY!
122.*Joe*
"Unfortunately some profs use their intelligence to manipulate people and
situations to an outcome that they want and they don't care how it effects
the other person. Neither does McGill. They'll lie, coerce, threaten, play
dumb, roll over etc.
Female students to be vigilant around some of them and record them if
need be. Just because someone is smart and erudite doesn't automatically
make them good, honest or decent."
females need to do this because their "personality" will ultimately be
blamed for the situation.
17 YEA 5 NAY!
123.*Hewie*
"Unfortunately some profs use their intelligence to manipulate people and
situations to an outcome that they want and they don't care how it effects
the other person. Neither does McGill. They'll lie, coerce, threaten, play
dumb, roll over etc.
Female students to be vigilant around some of them and record them if
need be. Just because someone is smart and erudite doesn't automatically
make them good, honest or decent."
Male profs may want to consider taping their female students for exactly
the same reason.
17 YEA 3 NAY!
124.*Hilaire*
Real question for Saideman and others.
You must have been attracted to at least some of your female advisors.
You are human, even though you are a family man with integrity and you
would never do anything wrong. (No attempt at moral equivocation here).
How do you ignore that fact? How do you ignore the fact that someone in
your presence is of the gender you are attracted to, beautiful, and perhaps
provocatively dressed, making you feel slightly uncomfortable in her
presence?
I would never do anything unprofessional, for the record, even if the
possibility arose. Life at home is great, I respect my partner, and I don't
ever want to revisit my twenties.
4 YEA 33 NAY!
125.*September*
WTF are you talking about?
37 YEA 4 NAY!
126.*Chun*
Hilaire, are you off your meds?
Cheap, Lolita students are just as bad as Humbert Humbert pervy profs.
Nothing new here, goes back to Abelard and Heloise and beyond. Like the
outcome of that story (check it), these things always end in disaster.
Sometimes these profs get jealous of their clever, attractive female
students, and it’s like they set out to destroy them in some way for their
own inefficiencies, and because they don’t have any valid or creative
thoughts of their own. I'd say over 70% of them are easily suffering from
some form of cerebral narcissism.
29 YEA 3 NAY!
127.*Hilaire*
^ I know the story, and I always felt sorry for Abelard and Heloise.
Imagine the good for humanity if they would have lived happily ever after
with lots of descendants.
No meds, no temptation to ever be involved with students, as the initial
post should have made clear.
I just wondered how other people dealt with their human reactions to
other human beings. Maybe there comes a point when you look at people like
robots or children.
2 YEA 12 NAY!
128.*Saideman*
Rep: 89
No, Hilaire, you treat people with respect and decency, with the
understanding that people come to grad school to get degrees and to learn,
not to get laid.
I remember I wrote about a while back about Rule #1 being about treating
the staff well, and, of course, someone commented on my blog that the first
rule is not to sleep with the students. No, it just requires being
professional. Being profession does not mean you don't treat them like
people. It just means that you treat them well.
In short, it really is not that difficult to do your job and treat
people decently. Plus there are the risks to family, career, and all that.
This ain't the 1950s--the norms changed a while ago and rightly so. I have
been in multiple departments where this stuff really does create a hostile
working environment--causing students to no longer see each other as allies
but adversaries. Not good at all.
24 YEA 13 NAY!
129.*Robert*
"Hilaire, are you off your meds?
Cheap, Lolita students are just as bad as Humbert Humbert pervy profs.
Nothing new here, goes back to Abelard and Heloise and beyond. Like the
outcome of that story (check it), these things always end in disaster."
This is simply untrue.
Only American Puritans (and their Canadian mini-mes) would have these
fantasies about "they had wicked sex! ergo, they must suffer from it!"
fantasies.
From classical Greece through contemporary France, all adult,
intellectual, warm-blooded societies have mixed the life of the mind with
the life of pleasure. It's a part of celebrating our full humanity.
Enough with your American Puritanism!
8 YEA 17 NAY!
130.*Hilaire*
"No, Hilaire, you treat people with respect and decency, with the
understanding that people come to grad school to get degrees and to learn,
not to get laid."
Of course I agree with that.
7 YEA 3 NAY!
131.*Calista*
While IQ ranges vary, typical cheaters and sexual harassers have the
same end goal: A fling with low risk, no strings or consequences. Those
with a little extra brain power can spin this to seem as if they seek an
innocuous friendship based on intellectual conversation and exchange of
ideas, or slight coercion but the end goal is always intimacy without risk.
They think they can mold students into what they want. They think wrongly.
Intelligence doesn't correlate to a person's morality, sure, it might
help in making moral decisions; but there are smart people out there that
are scumbags. Here's a little info from someone who's got one foot in the
professional world and one in academia: People don't "grow up" they don't
always "mature" in areas such as sex, love, relationships and navigating
emotions and feelings. They are in fact stunted in other areas. Most of the
growing up and maturing is all in their head. It's an act or a role that
even they've convinced themselves is true. The world, when it comes to
emotions, is more like high school than you'd want it to be. You're going
be like, "Seriously, WTF just happened?" just the same as then.
Profs may be incredibly mature or competent in one area, say their
chosen profession, but incredibly immature in another area at the same
time, say when it comes to being responsible for their actions. I'll tell
you something else, and this is what I hate about bullies and vampires in
general. Almost all of these people win, not based on solid arguments,
talent, timing or even dedication, but on opportunism and easy ways out -
it's a version of the Mafia. They just take power by being willing to take
it an uncivilized extreme so in order to stick up for yourself you have to
be willing to sink below what you consider decent, honorable or attractive
behavior (like having to record your interactions with them).
In the case of academia, it all psychic vampirism. It's about ego and
the veneer of civility covering loathsome and petty one-upmanship. Most
(not all) academics are in fact professional liars, they are experts and
very deft at prevaricating situations in their favor and deflecting blame
and responsibility on to others. No doubt they do this in instances of
sexual harassment as well.
31 YEA 5 NAY!
132.*Esmond*
any updates on the witch hunt?
9 YEA 3 NAY!
133.*Chun*
No.
12 YEA 3 NAY!
134.*Terance*
Just curious what Sadie and others would say about my situation: I met
my now-wife as she was a PhD student and I was junior faculty. We fell
madly in love and now are expecting our second son.
Was I a harasser? Was she a victim? Would you have done something if you
had found out that there was a time we were "fooling around", unmarried?
And would you put rules in place to prevent our type of relationship from
ever blossoming?
7 YEA 5 NAY!
95.
135.*Isbel*
Here's your answer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yI2oS2hoL0k
3 YEA 3 NAY!
136.*Delicia*
"Just curious what Sadie and others would say about my situation: I met
my now-wife as she was a PhD student and I was junior faculty. We fell
madly in love and now are expecting our second son.
Was I a harasser? Was she a victim? Would you have done something if you
had found out that there was a time we were "fooling around", unmarried?
And would you put rules in place to prevent our type of relationship from
ever blossoming?"
If you supervised her in any way, then yes I would put a a rule in
place. My preferred rule has always been that we can't have a romantic
relationship with a student whom we are supervising in any way. If you have
a relationship with a student, then this would require that you disclose it
to the chair and dean, cease advising, and not having the student in a
class. (If this last is impractical, such as you teach the required methods
section, then you would have to set up an alternative evaluator for any
work produced). This serves two purposes. 1) limiting the power imbalance
that may lead a student to view a sexual advance as a risk to their
standing: sleep with me or X. 2) it helps to minimize the appearance of
favoritism by others in the program, X is getting off easy because he/she
is sleeping with Y.
8 YEA 2 NAY!
137.*Muammar*
"Just curious what Sadie and others would say about my situation: I met
my now-wife as she was a PhD student and I was junior faculty. We fell
madly in love and now are expecting our second son.
Was I a harasser? Was she a victim? Would you have done something if you
had found out that there was a time we were "fooling around", unmarried?
And would you put rules in place to prevent our type of relationship from
ever blossoming?"
"If you supervised her in any way, then yes I would put a a rule in
place. My preferred rule has always been that we can't have a romantic
relationship with a student whom we are supervising in any way. If you have
a relationship with a student, then this would require that you disclose it
to the chair and dean, cease advising, and not having the student in a
class. (If this last is impractical, such as you teach the required methods
section, then you would have to set up an alternative evaluator for any
work produced). This serves two purposes. 1) limiting the power imbalance
that may lead a student to view a sexual advance as a risk to their
standing: sleep with me or X. 2) it helps to minimize the appearance of
favoritism by others in the program, X is getting off easy because he/she
is sleeping with Y."
Ok. So you wouldn't forbid it if those safeguards were in place. What
others have said indicates they may still forbid such relationships.
1 YEA 2 NAY!
138.*Debby*
Absolutely nothing about McGill surprises me anymore. I feel nauseous
when I think about my time there and some of those douches walking those
corridors.
15 YEA 2 NAY!
139.*Anatole*
What is baffling is why Saideman would post innuendo/rumours on his
blog. Unless you got incontrovertible *evidence*, dont go around sowing
innuendo.
4 YEA 3 NAY!
140. *Debby*
"What is baffling is why Saideman would post innuendo/rumours on his
blog. Unless you got incontrovertible *evidence*, dont go around sowing
innuendo."
Only the fact is that Sadie does. There were actual reports and real
documented actions were taken against one specific professor who, based on
Sadie's blog post, has gone back to his old ways.
That's just the paper-trail version.
Talk to former students and alumni who have taken classes with some of
these perverts and it's even worse. I heard the stories and one of these
louses would make goo-goo eyes at a few of my friends, not realizing how
repulsive and creepy he came across as when the whole time he was thinking
he was some kind of "catch".
Students talk. A lot.
16 YEA 1 NAY
141.*Anatole*
"What is baffling is why Saideman would post innuendo/rumours on his
blog. Unless you got incontrovertible *evidence*, dont go around sowing
innuendo."
"Only the fact is that Sadie does. There were actual reports and real
documented actions were taken against one specific professor who, based on
Sadie's blog post, has gone back to his old ways.
That's just the paper-trail version.
Talk to former students and alumni who have taken classes with some
of these perverts and it's even worse. I heard the stories and one of these
louses would make goo-goo eyes at a few of my friends, not realizing how
repulsive and creepy he came across as when the whole time he was thinking
he was some kind of "catch".
Students talk. A lot."
talk is talk
facts is facts
show evidence, not innuendo
(I dont even know the guy but I find it amazing that such accusations
can be leveled with out proper, actual evidence)
3 YEA 17 NAY!
142.*Debby*
I actually know some of the harassment officers at McGill and you
know what happens to the paperwork of these complaints?
They're destroyed after 5 years so its like nothing ever happened.
They are not kept under lock and key at McGill's permanent records at the
Masonic Hall. They are destroyed completely so these assholes continue to
get away with it.
22 YEA 4 NAY!
143.*Ormerod*
What about those a-holes who operate in the grey zone, off campus,
away from other people, in "secret"?
There's A LOT more of those than the ones listed here but the damage
they inflict on students is also just as bad.
17 YEA 2 NAY!
144.*Anatole*
how is it just as bad if it is off campus
5 YEA 8 NAY!
145.*Ormerod*
"how is it just as bad if it is off campus"
Give us specific examples of evidence, Anatole.
16 YEA 1 NAY!
146.*Terrie*
"What about those a-holes who operate in the grey zone, off campus,
away from other people, in "secret"?
There's A LOT more of those than the ones listed here but the damage
they inflict on students is also just as bad."
"how is it just as bad if it is off campus"
Then admin and other faculty have an excuse to ignore the problem
because it did not occur on campus. Things that occur off campus does have
repercussions for the on campus atmosphere. It makes it known that
harassment is ok.
16 YEA 1 NAY!
147.*Nena*
I'm surprised no one has yet mentioned what a flat-out narcissist MRB
is. He'll select a few girls and then all he does is play mind games with
them, never realizing how truly repulsive his behavior is.
17 YEA 3 NAY!
148.*Sharlene*
He anything changed since the creation of this thread?
2 YEA 3 NAY!
149.*Bear*
"I'm surprised no one has yet mentioned what a flat-out narcissist MRB
is. He'll select a few girls and then all he does is play mind games with
them, never realizing how truly repulsive his behavior is."
Or what a sneaky, surreptitious little sh*t he is. He's fooled
everyone except the girls who said no.
19 YEA 3 NAY!
150.*Raymund*
"When I was on grad admissions, I tried to keep students who wanted
to do Mideast or peacebuilding from coming to McGill because I had little
confidence that they would stay away from him."
Rex Brynen
11 YEA 2 NAY!
151.*Raymund*
"I'm not a prof and never will be but I was an undergrad at McGill and
took classes with both RB and MB. MB was just a creep, he made it known he
was available to quite a number of his more attractive female students but
wanted his female students to start things off so in case he got caught
with ole wifey, he could always say "she made me do it"."
MB has had several female graduate students. They have gone on to
successful careers. None have made any accusations. This is what you could
call "character assassination." RB is a different category.
5 YEA 19 NAY!
152.*Thornton*
"MB has had several female graduate students. They have gone on to
successful careers. None have made any accusations. This is what you could
call "character assassination." RB is a different category."
Right.
Out of the thousands of students he's had over the years and you're
saying nothing happened when some of them dare to come forward, even
anonymously? Keep the enabling going on.
18 YEA 3 NAY!
153.*Lizette*
Leave MRB alone.
Since there hasn't been a class-action suit or something similar, I'm
guessing the harassment is something small and nothing major given what an
outrageous flirt and tease he always has been It's enough that his name is
out there now and people will scrutinize him closely from now on, which
should have been happening from Day 1 anyway.
Also given that the Dean of Arts is from Poli Sci, the chair is
chummy with him, you can bet on the house that absolutely nothing is going
to happen, students come and go, these guys will retire sooner than later,
life goes on. Nothing to see here, move on.
13 YEA 2 NAY!
[Mark Brawley is a Grade A narcissist]
154.*Augustin*
"nothing major given what an outrageous flirt and tease he always has
been"
The inside joke when I was at McGill way back when, was that if you
were a half-decent looking girl, to be careful while visiting him during
office hours because chances were, he would come on to you. Nothing overt
or obvious but creepy, suggestive little things like him leaning forward
over his desk towards you with his tongue sticking out, curled up over his
upper lip while pretending to be looking for something in a book or paper.
{shudder}
12 YEA 4 NAY!
Separated at birth?
155.*Macey*
I know Rex Brynen, as I was a student with him a few years back.
Allegations have NO evidence. Everyone flirts from time to time. Show me
the proof and I'll believe it. Sorry
4 YEA 16 NAY!
156.*Vivyan*
You won't know until it happens to you.
5 YEA 2 NAY!
157.*Stella*
i am done with reading your comments. you are the one who lives in a
big bubble, far away from the reality. you are a type of a person who
enjoys hearing himself/herself talking. you see a student walking into a
professor's office, hear loud noises and screaming in the office, and
witness the student walking out of the office, limping with bruises,
scratches, and tears on his/her face, hair messy, clothes undone, etc.
others start to say the student was harassed and begin to shame the
professor.
you would say what you said just here... BS... there are so many
other explanations for bruises, scratches, and tears on the student's face.
why jumping to the conclusion! there are so many accounts for screaming and
loud noises in the office. why jumping to the conclusion!
what's more: suppose it is your sister. would you say the same thing?
hope your mom is proud of you.
There's a reason that our legal system says that an accused can face
the accusers. It's to prevent exactly the sort of thing that you are doing.
Yes, it hurts the accusers, and yes that's a problem, but we live in a
fallen world. What you're doing feels good to you and will get you
accolades from the "right set" of people in your little bubble, but that
doesn't make it the right thing. You should know better, but you'd have to
pull your ideological head out of your ass first to cross-examine your own
actions.
2 YEA 8 NAY!
158.*Gib*
They are both predators, just different MO's. One uses outright
coercion, the other subterfuge. Both are bad news.
9 YEA 2 NAY!
159.*Constant*
"He anything changed since the creation of this thread?"
Hell, like anyone knows. HM, the chair was supposed to do something
about this but doubt anything will ever really change at McGill.
Happy back-to-school kids!
7 YEA 1 NAY!
160.*Alexia*
Any news on RB or any other alleged incidents? Especially now that
McGill has a sexual assault policy? or are there any other threads for
people who have come into contact with him? I might want to take a look
based on my own experience.
3 YEA 1 NAY
161.*Joe*
I've been employed as a prof for 15 years (at a big public uni, not that
it matters), and this stuff is surprisingly common. I would guess that most
other folks with a decade and a half of experience have seen it on more
than one occasion. Put differently, is there anyone on this wacko board who
has been in the real game for a while who has never once come across stuff
like this? And just to be clear, I'm not saying it's OK or excusable, just
very common, sadly.
9YEA 2 NAY!
162.*Seraphina*
"I've been employed as a prof for 15 years (at a big public uni, not that
it matters), and this stuff is surprisingly common. I would guess that most
other folks with a decade and a half of experience have seen it on more
than one occasion. Put differently, is there anyone on this wacko board who
has been in the real game for a while who has never once come across stuff
like this? And just to be clear, I'm not saying it's OK or excusable, just
very common, sadly."
it is common, sadly. THAT is why I don't get why people on this board
act like it NEVER happens and/or think it does not have negative costs.
10 YEA 1 NAY!
163.*Seraphina*
"And all these poor girls he victimizes...who know the rumors and can't
seem to stay away...they are the victims
Except it plays right into the fantasy many many women have, about
getting attention...nowadays we need to protect these women from themselves."
people (men and women think this way) like you make me sick.
9 YEA 4 NAY!
164.*Gib*
" it is common, sadly. THAT is why I don't get why people on this board
act like it NEVER happens and/or think it does not have negative costs.
It doesn't just impact the victim which is bad enough, it creates a
toxic work environment for other students and well as colleagues. Don't
understand why profs decide to use/coerce/hit on/flirt/tease/lead on etc.
students. Can't they do that to someone in their own age-group or someone
who has the same amount of power instead of persons who have much less
power? If you've got problems, go see a professional instead of taking out
your garbage out on students.
16 YEA 2 NAY!
165.*Uhura*
MRB was sexually involved with an undergrad named Sarah, a student from
Toronto around 1994 or so. She bragged about it to several persons and
didn't really make a big deal about it.
The way MRB works is that he'll put lines and feelers out there to see
who will bite. Once they do, he waits for them to make the first move so in
case he's caught, it's a "consensual " relationship and he's covered.
Another girl you can ask him about is Priya.
14 YEA 4 NAY!
166.*Yorick*
Hey, how come a wealthy, powerful, well-connected monster like Harvey
Weinstein is able to fall but some of the slugs mentioned here continue to
be shielded?
11 YEA 3 NAY!
167.*Merlin*
"Hey, how come a wealthy, powerful, well-connected monster like Harvey
Weinstein is able to fall but some of the slugs mentioned here continue to
be shielded?"
because Academia. I blame the women who don't help other women too.
FWIW. Don't think it is fair to solely blame men for the culture.
9 YEA 4 NAY!
168.*Stan*
Someone had mentioned the Law of Averages on the Weinstein thread.
If the direct and indirect harassment is as prevalent as it has been
implied here, then it is only a question of time before a victim steps
forward and spills the beans. If the accused are indeed guilty, they'd be
wise to go for early retirement, leave and disappear, before the real dirt
comes out.
12 YEA 3 NAY!
169.*James T.*
Weinstein ran afoul, not of the (presumably) many women who consented to
his advances, but because of those who did not.
I don't know the McGill guy described here, but from the reports above
his tactics are quite different. If he's giving students vibes, students
make the first 'real' move, and they go to town, well, that's not
harassment, it's a relationship.
There are two lines of critique of that logic. First, if he has an
advisory capacity over the students and keeps that and the relationship
simultaneously, he is in violation of the policy at every large
organization I've ever seen in the last 20 years, including every
university, and I assume McGill as well. McGill should obviously deal with
that because the conflict of interest compromises the integrity of student
evaluation in general, and also the advising the particular student in
question is getting.
Second, because of a power differential, the student is functionally
incapable of giving consent, regardless of whether he has a supervisory
relationship with her.
What I don't see is how the second line can be reconciled with the
existence of any faculty-grad student relationships at all. If they should
all be prohibited, then make that the policy, and he'll run afoul of it.
But they aren't, so he hasn't.
11 YEA 4 NAY!
170.*Stan*
Did anyone see the recent McGill Tribune article on how sexual
harassment claims at McGill have gone up this past year?
It would seem that the folks at the Tribune have a dry sense of humor
because the photo they used in the article is the McTavish third floor
entrance into the Leacock Building, which is exactly where the names
mentioned in this thread, have their offices located. Hehehe...
13 YEA 5 NAY!
171.*Shyla*
Predators don’t go after the fastest gazelle in the herd, they go after
the lame one because it’s an easy catch. They have an uncanny ability to
sniff out who the vulnerable girls are and act accordingly. McGill should
push these types out instead of protecting them.
9 YEA 4 NAY!
172.*Vicki*
never understood why male academics date/marry current/former students
when the female in question is very plain. You couldn't find that outside
of academia?
8 YEA 1 NAY!
173. *Margaux*
Hilarious to watch the dudebros falling all over themselves to say for
each successive story, "well actually THAT thing he was doing wasn't really
so bad, it's not like he was chasing people down and forcibly raping them."
I bet they'll have some kind of justificatory narrative if someone posts a
story along those lines.
10 YEA 4 NAY!
174.*Vicki*
never understood why male academics date/marry current/former students
when the female in question is very plain. You couldn't find that outside
of academia?
and I am not saying the behavior is OK when the female has favorable
characteristics (pretty face, etc.). It is more understandable.
7 YEA 4 NAY!
175.*Adrianna*
Hilarious to watch the dudebros falling all over themselves to say for
each successive story, "well actually THAT thing he was doing wasn't really
so bad, it's not like he was chasing people down and forcibly raping them."
I bet they'll have some kind of justificatory narrative if someone posts a
story along those lines.
I don't think anyone is justifying sexual harassment. But Weinstein, in
addition to doing that, allegedly raped women. It's not unreasonable to
point out the difference.
9 YEA 1 NAY!
176.*Geraud*
"never understood why male academics date/marry current/former students
when the female in question is very plain. You couldn't find that outside
of academia?"
Because they can. Like mentioned in the other tips thread, many sexual
abusers and harassers are also either narcissists, sociopaths or
psychopaths. Their partners are big-time enablers and usually are
dysfunctional co-dependant. The two types usually flock to each other like
polarized magnets.
10 YEA 1 NAY!
177.*Clyde*
Sadie just posted a list of journalists’ names and their contact info
for any victims or whistleblowers of sexual harassment who want to share
their stories directly with them.
Sounds like McGill is about to get Weinsteined.
178.*Ouida*
Good for Sadie! Do the right thing!
6 YEA 2 NAY!
179.*Lorainne*
Given the narcissist trait, are also often rather put together, with a
happy looking family, and seem to be genuinely nice guys at first blush.
"never understood why male academics date/marry current/former students
when the female in question is very plain. You couldn't find that outside
of academia?"
"Because they can. Like mentioned in the other tips thread, many sexual
abusers and harassers are also either narcissists, sociopaths or
psychopaths. Their partners are big-time enablers and usually are
dysfunctional co-dependant. The two types usually flock to each other like
polarized magnets."
6 YEA 1 NAY
180. I bet the tension is palpable in those McGill faculty meetings.
3 YEA 1 NAY!
181. *Anneka*
"I bet the tension is palpable in those McGill faculty meetings."
Umm, not really
2 YEA 2 NAY!
182.*Clyde*
"I bet the tension is palpable in those McGill faculty meetings."
"Umm, not reall"
Quit lying Anneka.
2 YEA 0 NAY
183.*Annie*
"nothing major given what an outrageous flirt and tease he always has been"
"The inside joke when I was at McGill way back when, was that if you
were a half-decent looking girl, to be careful while visiting him during
office hours because chances were, he would come on to you. Nothing overt
or obvious but creepy, suggestive little things like him leaning forward
over his desk towards you with his tongue sticking out, curled up over his
upper lip while pretending to be looking for something in a book or paper.
{shudder} "
I had a cousin who was there in the 1990s and she heard similar things back then. I graduated from McGill in 2008 and while I never heard anything about
a specific incident, there were always rumors and warnings swirling around him,
that he was a creeper and had uncomfortable interactions with female students.If thishas been happening decade after decade, then clearly this is something habitual
and "normal" for him and McGill has been giving him a clear pass to act this way.
3 YEA 0 NAY
